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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianMerckx View Post
    Considering certain individuals on campus literally threw Abram under the bus when all this went down...yep...I'd say there is absolutely no chance in this happening. The kid did nothing wrong and was railroaded. Sometimes,as we all know,Notre Dame can be a little too pc. They should have stood by him a lot more than they did.
    It's a stretch to say he did nothing wrong, at least from the standpoint of the University. He admitted to consensual group sex. I'm pretty sure that the University is going to expel any student, football player or not, if they find something like that out -- especially if it becomes the focus of a very public criminal investigation. I'm not sure that the University had any choice but to expel Elam and the other players. Like it or not, what separates ND from other schools is that they take action when student engage in morally reprehensible behavior that they feel is unbecoming of an ND student (again, Elam conceded this point), whether or not it is illegal. We can argue about whether or not the University is unrealistic and too Puritanical or whatever, but they've been mostly consistent on this stuff. And, again, this was a very public thing that does not reflect well on the University. It would have been bad if it were just four ordinary students accused of this conduct, but the fact that it involved football players, one of the most high profile aspects of the University, pretty much made this a no-brainer. Group sex, even if consensual, isn't the same as having players getting busted smoking a bit of pot at a party.

    That said, I wouldn't blame him for harboring ill-will toward the school. It's a pretty sad situation on all fronts, and I include the putative victim in that.

  2. #12
    SebastianMerckx
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrzink View Post
    It's a stretch to say he did nothing wrong, at least from the standpoint of the University. He admitted to consensual group sex. I'm pretty sure that the University is going to expel any student, football player or not, if they find something like that out -- especially if it becomes the focus of a very public criminal investigation. I'm not sure that the University had any choice but to expel Elam and the other players. Like it or not, what separates ND from other schools is that they take action when student engage in morally reprehensible behavior that they feel is unbecoming of an ND student (again, Elam conceded this point), whether or not it is illegal. We can argue about whether or not the University is unrealistic and too Puritanical or whatever, but they've been mostly consistent on this stuff. And, again, this was a very public thing that does not reflect well on the University. It would have been bad if it were just four ordinary students accused of this conduct, but the fact that it involved football players, one of the most high profile aspects of the University, pretty much made this a no-brainer. Group sex, even if consensual, isn't the same as having players getting busted smoking a bit of pot at a party.

    That said, I wouldn't blame him for harboring ill-will toward the school. It's a pretty sad situation on all fronts, and I include the putative victim in that.
    That's not the bus I'm talking about. I don't question throwing him out of school,it's other things that bother me about the case. Let's just say even after finding out he committed NO crime, they still were particularly harsh to him for no reason. Again kicking him out of school was fine because of established rules however,the ways in which they went about it and lack of any support at all,was very questionable.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianMerckx View Post
    That's not the bus I'm talking about. I don't question throwing him out of school,it's other things that bother me about the case. Let's just say even after finding out he committed NO crime, they still were particularly harsh to him for no reason. Again kicking him out of school was fine because of established rules however,the ways in which they went about it and lack of any support at all,was very questionable.
    That sounds pretty consistent with the way that they operate. I've said it in the Fauria thread, ResLife is run by small people who get their jollies by making students know that they're dirt.

  4. #14
    Senior Member IrishinTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrzink View Post
    That sounds pretty consistent with the way that they operate. I've said it in the Fauria thread, ResLife is run by small people who get their jollies by making students know that they're dirt.
    So their worse than green mods? :rofl:
    Irish Guard - GH Division

  5. #15
    MirageSmack
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    If he hold a vendetta against ND, you'd think he'd hold one against Urbie too, since he recruited him. Anyway, forget about him, keep looking.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianMerckx View Post
    That's not the bus I'm talking about. I don't question throwing him out of school,it's other things that bother me about the case. Let's just say even after finding out he committed NO crime, they still were particularly harsh to him for no reason. Again kicking him out of school was fine because of established rules however,the ways in which they went about it and lack of any support at all,was very questionable.
    i don't understand your point. you say that it was ok to kick him out of school in light of established rules, but that they were "particularly harsh" to him.

    what exactly was harsh then? the lack of support? why is that questionable? i would find a lack of support to be expected during that sort of investigation. i doubt many universities, let alone a Catholic one, want to be seen as being on the side of the rapist rather than the victim. (I understand that he was found not guilty - I'm talking about public opinion leading up to the verdict).

    i'm not defending the heavy handedness of the university. i'm only saying that if you get accused of rape and then get the charge dropped in favor of a four on one gang bang on a campus of the largest and most prestigious Catholic university in the country, i would expect the university to act exactly in the fashion that it did.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianMerckx View Post
    That's not the bus I'm talking about. I don't question throwing him out of school,it's other things that bother me about the case. Let's just say even after finding out he committed NO crime, they still were particularly harsh to him for no reason. Again kicking him out of school was fine because of established rules however,the ways in which they went about it and lack of any support at all,was very questionable.
    According to the NY daily news.com article linked in this thread "Elam fondled her and wound up being convicted of sexual battery, a felony." NO crime? Did I miss something?

  8. #18
    SebastianMerckx
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    It's pretty common knowledge the case was a bunch of trumped up bs and many in campus,Including SEVERAL in positions of power within Notre Dame knew it was bs yet did nothing to help him out in any way.If anything,they washed their hands of it.
    1.She spent the night at the house
    2.Slept in bed with the attacker(s)
    3.removed her tampon before engaging in sexual acts
    4.Two people in the house testified there was no unusual sounds her or screams(they were within feet of where it happened)
    5. charges were dropped against two other guys that were charged with rape(the ones actually accused of intercourse)
    6.She willingly undressed
    7.Several other party goers that night who had first hand knowledge of the whole situation said she was full of shit as well.
    8.He always maintained his innocence
    I could go on and on............. Many Many Many people on campus knew that her story was extremely questionable and NEVER did anyone try to support Abram in any way. By the most explicit rules,yes they were obliged to expel him but they way he was treated on campus was completely unacceptable. So I say again...........he committed no crime and was railroaded.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianMerckx View Post
    It's pretty common knowledge the case was a bunch of trumped up bs and many in campus,Including SEVERAL in positions of power within Notre Dame knew it was bs yet did nothing to help him out in any way.If anything,they washed their hands of it.
    1.She spent the night at the house
    2.Slept in bed with the attacker(s)
    3.removed her tampon before engaging in sexual acts
    4.Two people in the house testified there was no unusual sounds her or screams(they were within feet of where it happened)
    5. charges were dropped against two other guys that were charged with rape(the ones actually accused of intercourse)
    6.She willingly undressed
    7.Several other party goers that night who had first hand knowledge of the whole situation said she was full of shit as well.
    8.He always maintained his innocence
    I could go on and on............. Many Many Many people on campus knew that her story was extremely questionable and NEVER did anyone try to support Abram in any way. By the most explicit rules,yes they were obliged to expel him but they way he was treated on campus was completely unacceptable. So I say again...........he committed no crime and was railroaded.
    Again, there is a fundamental contradiction in your post. You concede that they were obliged to expel him, but that he was "railroaded". He admitted to consensual group sex -- i.e. he wasn't railroaded, but rather admitted to engaging in activity that was clearly grounds for expulsion. What's more, all of the details of the case that seem to suggest that he was innocent of the rape charge are beside the point -- he admitted to being involved in consensual group sex. Whether or not the rape was trumped up bs is neither here nor there from the perspective of the university. If your point is that he was railroaded by the legal system, then I don't necessarily disagree, but that's a different issue.

    Now, I assume that your basic point is that he was treated like crap during the discipline process. This is entirely believable to me because I've seen how ResLife operates. They approach their job as if it is their purpose to humiliate students rather than to judge and enforce rules-violations. This is consistent with everything that I know about them. What people are asking you to divulge, however, is what specifically was done that was unfair. You've already conceded that the expulsion itself was not unfair. To help us out, what things did the university do, and how do you think they should have been done differently? Note also that the other guys were expelled as well, yet you seem to think that they got off easy. What is the nature of the differential treatment that you hint at? How were they treated better than Elam?

    These are honest questions. Most people have read the NY article on the situation, and I think that most recognize that the rape story is, at a minimum, questionable. And I think it's safe to say that being falsely accused of being a rapist would be pretty devastating. But, given that the expulsion was warranted, people want to know what the university did and what you think they should have done differently.

  10. #20
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    jrzink said it all.

    i'm struggling to understand how ND failed to support him through the process of getting dismissed for admitting to engaging in a group sex act. ND is a religious university. You can debate the merit of whether or not he should have been kicked out for something that is not technically illegal but against university code, but that's not the point here.

    I'm still wondering how ND could have "supported" him any more than they did. Pack his bags? Give him a ride to the bus stop?

    As much as we hate to admit it, there is another side to the draconian res life policies at ND. We are fans of a Catholic university that operates under a moral code that doesn't always follow the legal code. And while their actions have cost us some football players of late, one cannot deny that there is risk in letting things slide as well. Where do you draw the line? How do you reconcile a moral code against varying degrees of transgressions?

    Elam admitted to group sex. Rasheon Powers Neill got a DUI. Yeatman drank a beer at a party, but it was his second offense after being picked driving up a golf cart drunk on campus. We can only speculate what Fauria, Walls and Gray did to prompt their semester-long vacations. Chances are good, however, that their offenses involved dishonesty (cheating), poor grades or fighting.

    So what gets chalked up as "boys will be boys" versus offenses worthy of expulsion? The more they let slide, the more they risk the perception of selling out as a football factory and losing their moral authority on the matter. There's an argument to be made (not that I necessarily agree with it) that ND athletes need to be made an example of simply due to their very public standing on campus and throughout the country.

    The bottom line is that when athletes, students and fans choose ND, they're choosing to support an institution that continues in many ways to stand apart from the rest of the crowd. It's part of what makes ND special, and sometimes - particularly as fans - we have to take the good with the bad when you follow a school that chooses the road less traveled. Res life walks a fine line between balancing the values of the institution and the realities of everyday life. The don't always get it right, but it's not as black and white of an issue as people often make it out to be.

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